Thursday, November 6, 2008

Mormons and Marriage Polemics

[Mormon Sophistry] We called our friends David and Jimmy last night in San Francisco. They were married on Oct. 25 on a lovely day in that city, after 27 years together in a committed relationship. David is nearly 70. His reaction to Prop 8 passing in California was about what I expected. "We'll keep fighting," he said. "It's not going to go away, people aren't going to give up. We know that."

They don't know what's going to happen to the legal status of their marriage. Like the rest of us married stiffs, they go to bed together each night and wake up each morning, do their lives and are grateful to have someone on their side, helping them through. The outcome of the vote won't change that. Still, to live in a society that would recognize their marriage, that would be something all right.

The LDS Church issued this official statement regarding its well-publicized and the multi-million-dollar-funded fight it encouraged for Prop 8. It's posted on the church's "newsroom" link. According to LDS leaders, they have always supported joint property rights, the right of gay partners to visit each other in the hospital and many of the benefits that heterosexual married partners enjoy. It's just that marriage thing that they can't stomach.

The subtext of the official message is fascinating. The message was posted following Barack Obama's rout in his presidential victory. Obama drew millions of supporters who have never felt remotely a part of American politics or its power structure--blacks, Latinos (check out final election result maps and the border regions of every state from Texas westward to California. All of them, blue, blue, blue), gays, young voters. These people are the future of U.S. power and culture and the LDS hierarchy knows it. They had to issue a statement that seems inclusive and welcoming. The numbers in the U.S. are against them. The future is about same-sex marriage, an expansion of civil rights and a world with fewer borders, boundaries and restrictions on "people who aren't like us."

My friends David and Jimmy may not live long enough to see the change. But then I look around at the number of twenty- and thirty-somethings who are proudly gay and lesbian, who are politically engaged and who vote. It's just a matter of time. (Holly Mullen)


  1. The more that Mormons do in these matters, the more insignificant they become to the real world.

    This church won't exist in another 100 years.

  2. And neither will you or any of the people wanting to claim their relationship as a marriage. No wonder you post as anonymous with insight like that.

  3. To the majority of people under 35 (myself included) who voted in this past election, issues such as race and sexual orientation are not of any concern. Most of us have known gays and lesbians for as long as we can remember.

    The LDS Church and its backward-looking leadership are, once again, on the wrong side of history. Gay marriage will be a reality in this country when the new generation takes over. The actions of the LDS Church, won't so quickly be forgotten. This is going to be the cause of resentment and backlash from gay Americans in every state, as well as the people who love and support them.

  4. Right, Michael. My post is anonymous and yours isn't because you're the only Michael in town. Your name is so original there's no way I could confuse you with anybody else. You'll never know how much I respect your bravery by adding your completely original name to your opinion.

    Neither will I what, Michael? Exist in 100 years? I fucking hope not!

  5. Anonymous, another brilliant statement that once again adds absolutely nothing to this blog. If you won't be around in 100 years, then what was the point of your statement that the mormon church won't be around...? The mormon church seems to be growing like crazy so what is your basis for making the statement that it won't last???

    And if you have a problem with my name, take it up with my parents... they chose it, not me. Boohaha

  6. Michael,

    Please do illustrate your constructive addition to this blog. I'm not seeing it.

    What the hell's the matter with you anyway. I don't care about your name. I showed you that, even as you complained that I was posting anonymously, so were you. Dummy.

    And if you are posting with your real name, don't. That's incredibly stupid on so many levels.

    Of course I won't be around in 100 years. That has nothing to do with positing that The Church won't be. Where's the correlation?

    If you can't keep up, just move over. Okay?

  7. Can't keep up?

    The Mormons and their coalition won. So, uh, it's a bit premature to tell them to get out of the way, doncha think?

  8. Keep with blog, I meant. Jesus. Am I so crummy a writer?

    This victory is temporary, as Justin said. I believe that this is true. Kids today aren't glued to invented religious values like their parents. Kids today seem more centered on human values and those values are more fair, kind and loving than anything to ever come out of the local ward.

    Here. For fucks sake. Here's a little poem. Forgive the shoddy nature if you can. I couldn't be bothered to spend much time.
    If you're craving mot juste, look to Whitman. Or Bukowski. I think a little Bukowski lovin' is just what the Mormons need.

    religion is out and love is in
    and on this blog i type
    some is good and some is bad
    nonsense seems just right
    dullards are but temporary
    to the grave they'll go
    in their place the kids will rise
    and to all of us they'll show
    just how much we can do
    and just how far we'll fly
    they'll lose the fear and embrace us dear
    we're all the same they'll see
    new church will be the human heart
    at the core they'll speak to us
    all of life is equal and dear

  9. I just wish...

    That those that are enraged and angry about the proposition 8, would show the same respect and consideration that the LDS church showed the Gay community when Gay marriage was approved the first time.

    The church never picked your weddings or places of worship. They never posted angry or hateful blogs.

    Instead the people that were for Prop 8 went through the correct means of fighting it, the legal system and had the People of California ammend the law.

    Why can't the LDS church or any other church get the same respect in return from those who were opposed?

  10. Anon- A bit paranoid aren't you. Can't keep up would be you not answering even one question I posed to you, or even providing one point to support your statement that I called you on. Then you resort to name calling.... Wow, that will show me. Boohaha

  11. John - I don't know about other's who were upset about prop 8 but the reason I am upset is a religion seemed to be the main supporter in my eye's (from what I saw in the media). There was a reason why the separation of church and state is in the laws. It was so no one church could impose their beliefs on anyone. I am a firm believer in the 1st amendment. I would be upset if it was the Catholics or the Baptist's. I am not mad about which church did it but the fact that a church did it. I find it sad that people are upset that the LDS church did this and not that they are upset that any church did it.

  12. Katherine - It was more than the Mormons...It was Catholics, Baptists, Christians in general that respect others, yet place sacred respect around the laws of Marriage between a man and a woman. All of California voted on the subject, and everybody had a voice...fact is more people wanted prop it is...

  13. This blog is funny. It's saturated with fortune tellers, bigots, name callers, and finger pointers. You all GO TO YOUR ROOM!!!!


    Let's be civil. Geez.

  14. Sadly I blame SF mayor Newsom and his grandstanding more than any church. After the initial law was passed a lot of us not in SF were working on getting the law repealed through a proposition. People were open to our points that the law was discriminitory and a reaction of the religious right. Then Mayor Newsom starded his grandstanding.

    People who had previously commited to helping us in a campaign to get a proposition repealing the marriage ban were cold and unresponsive when we tried to get their help in opposing Prop 8. The few who were willing to explain their change of heart blamed Mayor Newsom and his actions not any church.

    We were at the point were we felt the law could have been repealed in this or the next election. Now we are looking at years and possible decades to correct this.

  15. The Gays and Lesbiens sicken me. Not because of thier choice. but because they are just the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you just accept the LDS views as thier views just as you have your views. The LDS church has it's view of lifestyle just as many gays have thier views. Calling any religion bigiots and bias because of thier religious views just shows how backward thinking this whole thing is. Yes the LDS religion may have been one of the main backers for this vote. But the voters in Californina and many other states had to agree with this many of whom are not LDS. It is not your civil right to have gay marriage. Your civil rights were voted on by the people.

    They did not take away your right to work, love or live.

  16. gee, Katherine ; why don't you try to unwad your panties and we'll explain it. No church is imposing their beliefs on anyone. Citizens who happen to be members of churches have advocated positions they support in the free marketplace of ideas. It is called "democracy". People don't give up their rights to expression or vote when they join a church, those rights are not reserved for only homosexuals. The first rule to playing with the grownups is learning to be a good sport when you lose. Try it.

  17. Since when is voting about loosing or winning? This is not a competition. It's about making a society work in a manner such that a majority can live a sort of peaceful/free whatever you want to call it life. Unfortunately there are many who want to impose on others on how they have to life their lives. So and after all the blah here comes my point. From above viewpoint I haven't heard a single argument that makes any sense why gays should not be allowed to marry. They don't infringe on anyones freedom by doing so.
    I guess there is no reason in arguing with religious nuts. It's just frustrating, almost all religions are based on something called compassion but I rarely see anyone being highly religious living after that fact...


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